Engine or Cabs issue - won't take load

classic Classic list List threaded Threaded
9 messages Options
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Engine or Cabs issue - won't take load

Maximum Carnage
Been on here a long time and should have registered a long time ago.
I bought a restored CB750 K1, PO did a lot of good work including powder coating the frame, top end rebuild, paint on tank and covers, reupholstered the seats etc... more detail if needed. The pic does not do it justice.
I made the purchase w/ the 750 running but sounded like the carbs needed to be sync. I took it to a small shop who is working on my 1964 Honda Dream. He cleaned the crabs and  used a synchronizer to sync the carbs. Starts and idles perfect but under load it will not go. Timing is set at idle but when you give it some gas the timing is off. He states the cam must be off a tooth or two and can't adjust the timing any further. Stating the engine must be pulled to remove the cover and verify the chain was installed properly.
Ask away, I'll provide as much info as possible. Any suggestions are greatly appreciated...

1964 CA77 Honda Dream & 1971 CB750 Honda K1
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Engine or Cabs issue - won't take load

TOOLS1
Administrator
If the cam timing was off that far the bike would be popping and backfiring, or not running at all. Also a compression check would show low compression if the cam timing was off. Did the bike have power before the carbs were rebuilt and synced? The general rule is that if a bike runs good at idle and then falls flat on power it needs more fuel. This could be that the needle and main jets need changed, or a vacuum leak. On the timing, you set the timing at idle (a strobe timing light is best) and then as the engine builds RPM the timing advancer will advance the timing accordingly.
TOOLS
P.S. You could do a rough check to see if the cam timing is off without removing the engine. Just set the valve clearance with the crank set at TDC, then check valve clearance at several points along the crank rotation (every 5* would be good) and if the clearance increases the cam timing is off.  
Life is not about the number of breaths, you take, but the moments that take your breath away.
I don't have an anger problem. I have an idiot problem. Hank Hill
Never confuse education for intelligence.
Happiness is a belt fed weapon.
I just can't imagine what could go wrong.
No fire? No explosions? So whats the point of your story?
Those who are too smart to engage in politics are punished by being governed by those who are dumber. ~Plato
It couldn't be done, but the darn fool didn't know it, and did it anyway.
We all got problems. Ksharp
I like vintage bikes because they take me away from the clutter of technology that I work with everyday and back to a simpler time of mechanical elegance and simplicity.. "ninadm"
Darkwing Duck: The worst part of public transportation is the Public.
"That is awesome shit there" Re-Run
"Fear nothing, attack everything" Eric Berry
" Oh, you read that on the internet? Clearly it IS a massive problem. Of course it CAN’t be normal operation."

1976 CB 750-A X 2
1977 CB 750-A X 4
1977 CB 750-K
1976 CB 750 F
1981 CB 750
1966 Kawasaki SG 250
1981 KZ 750 LTD
1973 CB 350
1979 CM 185 Twinstar
1982 Honda XL 80
South of Eden (Kansas City MO)
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Engine or Cabs issue - won't take load

Maximum Carnage
Compression is at 175ish.
The bike ran right before any work to the carbs was but was running rough.
All needles are in good shape after a couple were changes out including the float needles.
I did not inspect the jets myself but was told they were removed and inspected including main/slow jets.
Timing is set at idle with timing light but when rev the timing is off and kinda of pops at 2500 RPM.
To set/check the valve clearance with the crank set at TDC doesn't the valve cover have to be removed?
At this point are you suggesting it's a fuel/carb issue?

It has an electric ignition and was told it has good current but a good idea to change it and go with Accel but I can't find a model that fits.
1964 CA77 Honda Dream & 1971 CB750 Honda K1
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Engine or Cabs issue - won't take load

TOOLS1
Administrator
It is clear that you are not familiar with how an engine operates, and I think that the shop you have working on your bike is not familiar with how one operates either. First, the timing is set to the mark at idle, and then as the RPM increases the timing mark moves because of the timing being advanced by the timing advancer. Second, if the bike ran and accelerated before the carbs were removed and cleaned it should run afterwards. There is no way that the cam timing could have changed because of the carbs being removed and cleaned. Third, you can adjust valve clearance without removing the valve cover, that is what the eight removable caps are for on the valve cover. Lastly, I was referring to the settings of the needle jets, not the needle valves, and the size of the jets. And yes, I do think it is a carb problem, most likely a vacuum leak caused by the carbs not sealing to the intake boots after being removed and replaced, a very common problem.
I would suggest you download the Honda Factory Service Manual from our manual thread, it is a free download, and study it before letting this shop take any more of your $$$$$$$$$
TOOLS
Life is not about the number of breaths, you take, but the moments that take your breath away.
I don't have an anger problem. I have an idiot problem. Hank Hill
Never confuse education for intelligence.
Happiness is a belt fed weapon.
I just can't imagine what could go wrong.
No fire? No explosions? So whats the point of your story?
Those who are too smart to engage in politics are punished by being governed by those who are dumber. ~Plato
It couldn't be done, but the darn fool didn't know it, and did it anyway.
We all got problems. Ksharp
I like vintage bikes because they take me away from the clutter of technology that I work with everyday and back to a simpler time of mechanical elegance and simplicity.. "ninadm"
Darkwing Duck: The worst part of public transportation is the Public.
"That is awesome shit there" Re-Run
"Fear nothing, attack everything" Eric Berry
" Oh, you read that on the internet? Clearly it IS a massive problem. Of course it CAN’t be normal operation."

1976 CB 750-A X 2
1977 CB 750-A X 4
1977 CB 750-K
1976 CB 750 F
1981 CB 750
1966 Kawasaki SG 250
1981 KZ 750 LTD
1973 CB 350
1979 CM 185 Twinstar
1982 Honda XL 80
South of Eden (Kansas City MO)
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Engine or Cabs issue - won't take load

Maximum Carnage
This post was updated on .
I am somewhat aware of how engines work but not a professional, I have the manual as well. I appreciate any suggestions.
I'm not sure he removed the tapper caps to adjust. It's running a bit better than it was before the carbs were cleaned but not at full capacity. Timing is spot on at idle when you give it some gas the timing won't advance to the marks. I'll be pulling the carbs to do a thorough inspection before doing anything else. Then I'll look @ the timing issue. The timing was never checked before any work was done on the carbs.

 I wanted to have it road worthy this fall but looks like that might not be possible...
1964 CA77 Honda Dream & 1971 CB750 Honda K1
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Engine or Cabs issue - won't take load

TOOLS1
Administrator
What brand of ignition do you have? It is common for the ignition not to go to full advance on these bikes, they have a weighted mechanical advance unit which is not very accurate. I have tried cleaning and lubricating them, but never got them to go to full advance, so I never worried about it. However I have set timing at full advance on a few engines before. Just make sure that the engine is not pinging/knocking at lower RPMs if you do this. However I still think you are describing a carb/fuel related issue.
TOOLS
Life is not about the number of breaths, you take, but the moments that take your breath away.
I don't have an anger problem. I have an idiot problem. Hank Hill
Never confuse education for intelligence.
Happiness is a belt fed weapon.
I just can't imagine what could go wrong.
No fire? No explosions? So whats the point of your story?
Those who are too smart to engage in politics are punished by being governed by those who are dumber. ~Plato
It couldn't be done, but the darn fool didn't know it, and did it anyway.
We all got problems. Ksharp
I like vintage bikes because they take me away from the clutter of technology that I work with everyday and back to a simpler time of mechanical elegance and simplicity.. "ninadm"
Darkwing Duck: The worst part of public transportation is the Public.
"That is awesome shit there" Re-Run
"Fear nothing, attack everything" Eric Berry
" Oh, you read that on the internet? Clearly it IS a massive problem. Of course it CAN’t be normal operation."

1976 CB 750-A X 2
1977 CB 750-A X 4
1977 CB 750-K
1976 CB 750 F
1981 CB 750
1966 Kawasaki SG 250
1981 KZ 750 LTD
1973 CB 350
1979 CM 185 Twinstar
1982 Honda XL 80
South of Eden (Kansas City MO)
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Engine or Cabs issue - won't take load

Maximum Carnage
I have a Dynatek DS1-2 and I found out that cylinder #3 was misfiring due to bad ignition coil.
I started a new thread looking for advise on what to replace it with
http://honda-cb750-s.456789.n3.nabble.com/Ignition-coil-upgrade-td4061369.html#a4061373
you suggested: Part# CB-70511 from cb750supply.com

After some further research I might go with
Dynatek Coil DC8-1 which is 5.0 ohm - Angled Dual Output. I'll talk to Dynatek on Monday to verify if that's  the correct configuration.

I need to get this sorted out prior to working on the carbs.
1964 CA77 Honda Dream & 1971 CB750 Honda K1
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Engine or Cabs issue - won't take load

TOOLS1
Administrator
A bad ignition coil should be misfiring on both cylinders, not just one. Have you checked the spark plug, plug cap, and wire? A running problem on one cylinder is usually caused by a carb problem. Most likely a vacuum leak, or plugged pilot jet.
The Dyna coils are good, but I do not like the fact that if you ever crank the engine with a lead disconnected it will ruin the coil.
TOOLS  
Life is not about the number of breaths, you take, but the moments that take your breath away.
I don't have an anger problem. I have an idiot problem. Hank Hill
Never confuse education for intelligence.
Happiness is a belt fed weapon.
I just can't imagine what could go wrong.
No fire? No explosions? So whats the point of your story?
Those who are too smart to engage in politics are punished by being governed by those who are dumber. ~Plato
It couldn't be done, but the darn fool didn't know it, and did it anyway.
We all got problems. Ksharp
I like vintage bikes because they take me away from the clutter of technology that I work with everyday and back to a simpler time of mechanical elegance and simplicity.. "ninadm"
Darkwing Duck: The worst part of public transportation is the Public.
"That is awesome shit there" Re-Run
"Fear nothing, attack everything" Eric Berry
" Oh, you read that on the internet? Clearly it IS a massive problem. Of course it CAN’t be normal operation."

1976 CB 750-A X 2
1977 CB 750-A X 4
1977 CB 750-K
1976 CB 750 F
1981 CB 750
1966 Kawasaki SG 250
1981 KZ 750 LTD
1973 CB 350
1979 CM 185 Twinstar
1982 Honda XL 80
South of Eden (Kansas City MO)
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Engine or Cabs issue - won't take load

Maximum Carnage
Plugs are good, I did misspoke the cables are shot not the coil. The wire is very hard/brittle. I took out the plug to try to shorten the wire but seems it's been cut one too many times.  
I will look into the carbs, especially #3 once I get new ignition coils.
1964 CA77 Honda Dream & 1971 CB750 Honda K1