Honda CB750 Rebuild - Bikes Running Decent But I Have Some Real Concerns

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Honda CB750 Rebuild - Bikes Running Decent But I Have Some Real Concerns

jsmits
So i've been working on a 78 CB750 this winter, and I've finally gotten it close to being able to take for a ride. It's running pretty good, I just need to get a few more things back in place and do a run through on some bolts before I take it for it's first cruise. I have a couple of questions as I'm sure I do not have the carbs just right yet. I have a few symptoms that I want to run by someone whose been around the block on these things.

The biggest thing I'm concerned about is the first carb on the left side. I've been having a hell of a time with this one as the needle seat is pushed in further than the rest. I don't know if this is standard from the factory, but it seems to cause a lot of problems with the gas level in the bowl and I've had trouble with it overflowing. I can sort this out by playing with it a bit once the carbs are back on the bike.

So the bike is running pretty well. I have it idling good once it warms up for a bit. Slight, fast blips of the throttle cause it to bog down still but I should be able to work that out with some more idle and timing adjustments. Here's my main concern though, that first carb has far more air suck/blowback than the rest. You put a piece of paper in front of each carb intake and while the paper is mostly stable on 2, 3, and 4, the 1st carb the paper really dances a lot. You can feel air coming back out when you put your hand near it. Could this be an issue with one of the valves on that side? Also, if you cover that carb, the engine shuts down completely, while the others it only drops a bit. And one more odd thing, spraying carb cleaner into that carb also kills the engine.

Is this normal or do I have a real problem that needs to be addressed?

Also, the outside cylinders run much hotter than the inside. I have a laser temp reader, and pointing it at the exhaust right near the flanges, the outside 1 and 4 are around 450-500 at idle while the inside 2 and 3 are around 275-350. Is this normal or could this be a symptom of another problem?

Thanks in advance for any help or insight duders.
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Re: Honda CB750 Rebuild - Bikes Running Decent But I Have Some Real Concerns

jsmits
This post was updated on .
Also, when I pulled the plugs after idling and revving it for about 10 minutes, they are all real close to one another. Mostly black around the edges and first couple threads, with just a slight bit of white chalkiness around the gaps where the spark fires. Looking at NGK's site, they look a lot like what they say is 'normal' with a bit more black and less deposits seeing as they are brand new so I think my jetting and such is good. I just have this weird issue with the first carb that I'm concerned about before really starting to ride the thing.

http://www.ngksparkplugs.com/tech_support/spark_plugs/faqs/faqread.asp?mode=nml
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Re: Honda CB750 Rebuild - Bikes Running Decent But I Have Some Real Concerns

Re-run
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In reply to this post by jsmits
Couple be a couple of issues. Lets start with the plugs. What number are they? Stock for a cb750 are D8EA. They should not be DR plugs as those have built in resistance and the plug caps already take care of that.
D9 is a colder plug and d7 is a hotter plug. You would not use a d7 for anything really unless you are running in cold temps. D9 is good for long distances or hotter temps. By temps, I mean ambient air temps, not motor temp.

Also, it is more common for the inside cylinder to be hotter than the outside. The outside cylinders are exposed to more cooling medium, i.e. the fins.

Now, what do you mean by "needle Seat"? the needle is mounted in the slide and so there is no depth change. They then insert into the main jet which screws in. Unless somehow the thread got tapped further into the jet holder, these should not sit at any appreciable difference in height. Now, if you got needles from a 77 or older, those had slots on them to change needle height.

When assembling the carbs, you bench synced them right? You basically take the smooth end of a 1/8 inch drill bit and set it in #2 and set the idle knob so that the carb, when closed, just barely holds the drill bit. You then set the other 3 carbs to do the same. Then you should also set the idle mix screw on each carb to manual spec. This depends on if you have the K or F model. I think 1.5 turns out from a lightly seated position for the K and 1.75 for the F. I think.

I should also ask if the carbs were thoroughly cleaned. Did you manually pull out the idle jets and clean them? If not, they are most likely still dirty. Carb sprays and air rarely get them fully clean. When you clean a carb, it should be clean enough you would drink through it. This includes the accel pump and housing.

Float height should be set to 14.5 mm +-.5mm. This is done by holding the carb at an angle so that the float closes BUT so it does NOT push in the pin on the float needle. Final height check can be done with 4 clear fuel tubes hooked to the drain nipple and turned up. Then crack open the drain screw and the heights should be virtually equal.

From here, I would check into your ignition. I assume you still have the points, so I will go by that.
Point gap should be from .012 to .016 or so. Again, check manual but I think I have the right numbers. When I ran points, I set it to the lowest number, .012. Reason for this is that these systems are weak. Yes, reliable but weak. Keeping the point gap lower helps with dwell time, also knows as coil saturation time. A more saturated coil gives better spark energy, at least till full coil capacity, then it just bleeds off as heat. That is not a concern with points though.

From there, you must make sure your timing is accurate on static timing. I use a light strip for this that goes out as soon as the point opens. This is good for static timing. You will want a timing gun for high speed timing, mainly to check to see if the advancer is working right. I would also suggest getting a dwell meter with tachometer. Not required but very handy. This will make sure your dwell is at maximum.
Again, these old points systems are weak in terms of spark energy, so maximizing dwell is critical.

The secondary use of the dwell meter comes with the tach for tuning the idle mix of the carbs. The bike tach is terribly inaccurate for this. You can do without this if you want, but best performance will be had with it.

There is more but this is enough to start with.

Oh 1 more thing, if you did not get new spark plug caps, check the resistance of the old caps. Should be about 5000 ohms. Much higher and replacement is in order.
The ride IS the adventure. The destination is just to get gas!
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Re: Honda CB750 Rebuild - Bikes Running Decent But I Have Some Real Concerns

LukeM
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Welcome back, Re-Run.  A very consise and well-written reply.  Nicely done!

Luke M
Used to have a 1979 CB750L, sold it as a parts bike, now riding a slightly modified 1984 VT700C. Network/Field Engineer. Central OH, USA, Earth, Sol System, Milky Way Galaxy, Universe.
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Re: Honda CB750 Rebuild - Bikes Running Decent But I Have Some Real Concerns

jsmits
This post was updated on .
In reply to this post by Re-run
Thanks for the very detailed response Re-run. I'll run through your response bit by bit.

The plugs are D8EA and they seem pretty healthy from what I can tell. I know the bike needs more idle adjustment.

I was refering to the float needle and the pressed-in seat that it slides up and down in. On the 78 carbs, this 'seat' is pressed into the carb. The first carb's float needle 'seat' is pushed further in, so the float tab that the needle sits on needs to be bent way further down than the rest for the float to be set at the proper level.

The bike has low miles on it and the carbs are spotless. Accelerator pump is working, all the jet passageways clean and I have 120 mains and #42 pilots to help it run better with pods (the last owner put them on and I do not have an airbox). The next carb pull I'm going to shim the slide needle to further improve it's pod performance.

I did bench sync the carbs, and the floats were all at 14.5 mm exactly. This was fine until after a few pulls of the carbs, that troublesome first carb started overflowing. I ended up adjusting its float height a bit with the carbs on the bike to get it to stop.

I then synced the carbs with a set of gauges after I had it idling well. The bench sync got them pretty close, but that first carb needed to be raised a bit to get it in-line with the other gauge pressures. The bike ran much better after this.

I have one of the Pamco ignition systems on it. The points were really weak when I first got it and decided to go with one of these. It's got brand new coils and spark plug harness as well. I advanced the timing on it a bit last night as it felt a little too retarded, and the bikes idle performance improved some more.

I'm wondering if the heat difference has something to do with the new 4-1 exhaust as thats where I'm taking readings from. Maybe the outsides don't get as much flow as the other two and theres more heat buildup on the outside two? I'll try heat readings off the cylinder head directly next time.

My main concern is that extra air suck/pull on the first carb. To me it feels like possibly a valve issue on that cylinder. Is it something to worry about or something that can be lived with until I decide to pull the engine again? I'm a noob (web developer's first real forray into mechanics) and this project has been my first real learning experience with a SOHC system. Is it possible that one of those valve springs went back on too tight after I lapped and did the seals? Or maybe one of the rocker arms is out of adjustment, allowing a bit of air in and out of the cyclinder at the wrong part of the stroke? And this is causing some back pressure during slower engine revs?

I just want to be sure these problems aren't going to be catastrophic if I put some miles on the bike before I pull the engine again as the bike is running pretty good. Better than my friends old 350 I used to ride ever did at least lol.

I'm going hard on this thing this weekend and getting everything back together and wired up before I take another run at the carbs. Thanks for the reply and I look forward to additional insight!
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Re: Honda CB750 Rebuild - Bikes Running Decent But I Have Some Real Concerns

Re-run
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Really strange on the float needle seat. As long as the float stops flow though, it should be ok.

What do you have the idle mix screws turned out to? Since the carbs have been synced, the idle mix tuning could be done. best results are from an external tach instead of the bike tach. The bike tach is not nearly accurate enough.

Have you checked your compression and performed a leakdown test? Just to make sure everything is generating compression and holding it decent?

I would also bump the valve clearances up .001  Intake set to .003 and exhaust to .004. the stock clearances are not really enough once the engine gets hot. Increasing them will reduce valve wear and allow things to flow a bit better though noise might be slightly higher.

The cooler inner temps would generally indicate that those cylinders are running cooler either from being richer or not completely firing. The outside cylinders are exposed to more cooling. Tuning the idle mix might even those out some.

The quick and dirty way to tune idle mix is to start and get the motor to normal operating temp. hook up a tach and set idle to about 1200 rpm. Turn the fuel screw till the bike hits its highest rpm, then turn it out slightly so that rpm drops about 50. Start with carb 1 and just repeat for each carb through #4. After you set each carb, back the idle down to 1200. While doing this, a fan should be pointed at the engine to provide cooling air flow.

Ultimately, if everything checks out, the engine should be fine.
The ride IS the adventure. The destination is just to get gas!
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Re: Honda CB750 Rebuild - Bikes Running Decent But I Have Some Real Concerns

jsmits
Cool thanks for the insight duder. I'm in the process of getting the rest of the bike together and wired back up. Still got some chrome parts to restore and such. Once everything is back together and sitting pretty and tight, I'm pulling the carbs one last time to shim the slide needles and to take another go at the floats. At that point I'm going to do another sync, and then do the idle run through.

The valves will have to wait until the next engine pull towards the end of the season unless I can manage to get the cover off without pulling it. I don't think you can though. I seem to remember it being just a little too cramped to get it off.

Thanks again, and I'll let you guys know how it's running.