Regulator, how does it break?

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Regulator, how does it break?

Dw07u
Hi guys, just curios, what will cause a regulator to fail? Age? Over volt/amp? what?

I had some regulator issues since I first got the bike, till it eventually just stopped charging. Got the thing replaced with a sourced part, second hand. Yesterday It broke again, or so I suspect... I don't really have the tools to check these things so waiting on a mechanic to tell me the news...

But what bugs me is that with the original regulator, I pushed the bike pretty hard, for about an hour, hour break and then for another hour, and it was fine months after that, then, the other day I took it out on the freeway again, pushed it a bit( for like maybe 2mins), and the next day the thing wasn't charging. Battery is new...


I honestly don't have a clue on how a regulator works, just know it regulates power and is responsible for keeping the battery charged... now what I'm wondering is, how does something like that break... I mean, does it have capacitors or something that only has a limited lifespan or something? can the bike essentially produce too much current for it to handle? burn it out?

Please let me know what you guys think?

Oh and by pushing the bike i mean going like 150km/h

Any advice would be helpful.... Getting parts for these CB750s is a mission here, and most parts are secondhand.... unless i import

I so wish I could just be done with studying so I can have time and money to get a proper workshop together and fix my own stuff... and learn off course...
Dress for the fall, not the ride...
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Re: Regulator, how does it break?

rrgunslinger
Bad Battery?

On Wed, Mar 28, 2012 at 3:06 PM, Dw07u [via Honda CB750'S] <[hidden email]> wrote:
Hi guys, just curios, what will cause a regulator to fail? Age? Over volt/amp? what?

I had some regulator issues since I first got the bike, till it eventually just stopped charging. Got the thing replaced with a sourced part, second hand. Yesterday It broke again, or so I suspect... I don't really have the tools to check these things so waiting on a mechanic to tell me the news...

But what bugs me is that with the original regulator, I pushed the bike pretty hard, for about an hour, hour break and then for another hour, and it was fine months after that, then, the other day I took it out on the freeway again, pushed it a bit( for like maybe 2mins), and the next day the thing wasn't charging. Battery is new...


I honestly don't have a clue on how a regulator works, just know it regulates power and is responsible for keeping the battery charged... now what I'm wondering is, how does something like that break... I mean, does it have capacitors or something that only has a limited lifespan or something? can the bike essentially produce too much current for it to handle? burn it out?

Please let me know what you guys think?

Oh and by pushing the bike i mean going like 150km/h

Any advice would be helpful.... Getting parts for these CB750s is a mission here, and most parts are secondhand.... unless i import

I so wish I could just be done with studying so I can have time and money to get a proper workshop together and fix my own stuff... and learn off course...
Dress for the fall, not the ride...



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American by birth. Cowboy by choice! Vero Beach, FL http://i373.photobucket.com/albums/oo172/grandpaslinger/HD%20Road%20Glide/IMAG0046.jpg
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Re: Regulator, how does it break?

Dw07u
no... I charged up the battery with a charger the other day, and it took the charge just fine... also it's the second battery I got in like 6 months... highly doubt the battery... hopefully the mech will phone me tomorrow with good news like, "bad battery" lol...

Still, how does a regulator break?
Dress for the fall, not the ride...
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Re: Regulator, how does it break?

TOOLS1
Administrator
In reply to this post by Dw07u
I think it is age, and heat that cause them to fail.
TOOLS
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1976 CB 750-A X 2
1977 CB 750-A X 4
1977 CB 750-K
1976 CB 750 F
1981 CB 750
1966 Kawasaki SG 250
1981 KZ 750 LTD
1973 CB 350
1979 CM 185 Twinstar
1982 Honda XL 80
South of Eden (Kansas City MO)
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Re: Regulator, how does it break?

rrgunslinger
In reply to this post by Dw07u
Ok, All a regulator does is change AC (coming from the alternate)into DC (going to the electrical components of the bike).  If something is pulling to much amperage (short in batt, bad ground or a mild short) it will melt the regulator.
First thing I would do is see if there is any amperage going to the bike when shut off. How often do you need to charge your battery?
I had a 305 superhawk the would melt a regulator right quick.  My dad made one that it couldn't hurt.  To bad I don't have it anymore.

On Wed, Mar 28, 2012 at 3:17 PM, Dw07u [via Honda CB750'S] <[hidden email]> wrote:
no... I charged up the battery with a charger the other day, and it took the charge just fine... also it's the second battery I got in like 6 months... highly doubt the battery... hopefully the mech will phone me tomorrow with good news like, "bad battery" lol...

Still, how does a regulator break?
Dress for the fall, not the ride...



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Re: Regulator, how does it break?

Dw07u
well I dont have to charge it that often, but after a couple days it does struggle to start, sounds like there is not enough power going to the starter... after like a week of no riding, it needs to be charged...
Dress for the fall, not the ride...
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Re: Regulator, how does it break?

Dw07u
thanks for that explanation
Dress for the fall, not the ride...
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Re: Regulator, how does it break?

sgtslag
Actually, it is a bit more complex.  The Rectifier converts AC into DC (uses solid state diodes:  they can get hot from the current running through them, which is why the whole assembly has a heat sink attached to it -- aluminum fins for cooling; excessive heat will burn them either into an open circuit, or a short circuit -- both are a critical failure).  The Regulator is a separate circuit, physically attached to the Rectifier circuit assembly; the purpose of the Regulator is to shunt excess voltage to the bike's circuit ground (back to the Alternator), to maintain the voltage (electrical pressure, similar to water pressure) at a safe level -- typically less than 15 Volts.

The Rectifier, and the Regulator are put into one assembly to take advantage of using one heat sink for both, and to conserve space on the bike's chassis.  They're electrically separate circuits, but inter-related.  They're designed for heavy duty, but the safety margin is only so big.  With age, silicon junctions (diodes, transistors, and other components) fail; heat cycles stress them, which also leads to failure.

I have not replaced mine yet, but here is a site I keep bookmarked, should I need to replace mine:

http://www.oregonmotorcycleparts.com/Reg_rec_units.html

He claims his parts are over-engineered, so they have a larger-than-OEM safety margin.  That is a very good thing.  If mine goes, I plan on ordering his unit, not an OEM.  Many advances have been made in solid state electronics since your bike was built, and mine ('79).  Today's diodes, and other silicon devices, can handle more power, in smaller packages.

As far as testing the Rectifier/Regulator goes, it can be done with a Digital Multimeter costing as little as $5-$10.  The instructions on how to test it, are in the FSM, available off of the Home Page of this site.  To test whether your Rectifier/Regulator is working properly, just connect a voltmeter across the battery terminals with the bike running, and open the throttle to achieve 2,000 RPM:  the voltage should read 14+ Volts, if the Rectifier/Regulator is working; if it reads less than 13 Volts, the battery is not being charged, and the Rectifier/Regulator is not working, or the Alternator is not working.  Set your Digital Voltmeter to A/C, and connect the leads across two of the yellow wires, attached to the Rectifier/Regulator (A/C lines from the Alternator):  if you read more than probably 6 VAC (the correct value is unknown to me, as it is a three-phase AC output, so the A/C voltage may be higher), the Alternator is working, if it reads less, or zero, then your Alternator is NOT working (see FSM for troubleshooting methods).  Cheers!
1979 CB750K (sold, 2012, but not forgotten)
1983 Kawasaki 440 LTD Belt Drive (sold, 2011)
1993 Kawasaki Voyager XII
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Re: Regulator, how does it break?

rich
In reply to this post by Dw07u
Ask your mechanic to test the resistance of the AC generator rotor as described/shown in this thread: http://honda-cb750-s.456789.n3.nabble.com/1981-CB750k-not-charging-the-battery-td3144722.html

There should be at least 4 OHMS resistance between the two copper rings.

This issues you describe, with the battery needing a charge every couple of days, sound like the rotor may be going bad.

An intermittent short in the stator is also not uncommon. There's a test procedure for that in the shop manual (http://honda-cb750-s.456789.n3.nabble.com/NEW-Repair-manuals-April-26-2011-Updated-td685918.html), Chapter 16 of the 79-83 manual covers the procedure for testing the entire system.
89 VN 750A - Given to son-in-law
79 CB 750K-sold 3 May 21
78 CB 750K
77 CB 750K
77 GL 1000 x 2
77 CB 550F
Holton, KS, US
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Re: Regulator, how does it break?

rich
In reply to this post by Dw07u
I wanted to mention that when your scouring the beautiful South African countryside for parts, that the AC Generator components from any 1979-1983 CB650, CB750 or CB900 will work. They all use the same rotor and stator.
89 VN 750A - Given to son-in-law
79 CB 750K-sold 3 May 21
78 CB 750K
77 CB 750K
77 GL 1000 x 2
77 CB 550F
Holton, KS, US
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Re: Regulator, how does it break?

Hellbilly429
If by chance you do need a new regulator/rectifier here is where I bought mine for $66, works fine. http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000WKFEFE  Also, one of my brushes was broken and was causing issues too, got my brushes through them as well for $15 http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B002303U5C
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Re: Regulator, how does it break?

MarkPBG
In reply to this post by sgtslag
SgtSlag…. I bought a new solid state rectifier and separate solid state voltage regulator from that guy. If they're not over engineered, I'd like to know how they weight twice what the originals do! (got the two separate units so it would be a direct plug in replacement for the bike)

He has an EXCELLENT page on testing every part of the charging system on his page too….

Click on Honda SOHC four link, then scroll down to the bottom.

He also says exactly what wires to hook the meter to, what to set the meter to, and what every reading should be. Just like what you put up here. :) I'm following the test procedure before replacing them, because  he shows you where if some things fail a certain test, it indicates a wiring problem and not a regulator or rectifier, so I want to make sure my wiring is good before installing them!

P.S. Glad you guys posted his link, his stuff really feels well made (not going to tear them open and look at the quality of the components, obviously) But you know you can just tell when someone is selling you junk, and when you're getting the good stuff. :)
Mark Davis
Palm Beach Gardens, FL
amateur photographer, hot rodder, motorcyclist, adventurer
"Four wheels move the body. Two wheels move the soul."
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Re: Regulator, how does it break?

Dw07u
thanks guys! will look into it

The world of the regulator/rectifier is making so much more sense to me now. Thanks a mil!

But first off to work...

Will hopefully get the bike sorted today....

I'm definitely going to look into getting those "over engineered" parts, I love over engineering... it just makes sense, rather extra safe than a little sorry

Have a awesome day guys!
Dress for the fall, not the ride...
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Re: Regulator, how does it break?

Dw07u
Hi everyone!

Thanks for the advice...

I have only now, since the bike has been to three different mechanics and still giving trouble, decided to inspect it myself... Seems the regulator the guy fitted last could not handle the bikes output and died on me just after a nice day of riding more violently than usual... and when it worked it did not charge the battery nearly as much as it should have...

Ordering a new one, and yes, I checked the AC generator, works well, and I might get new brushes just for the heck of it, one seems a bit worn...

Just again would like to say to everyone, thank you for all the advice, and support...

I know i'm not the most active user on this forum but I hope to one day be wise like so many of you are,
Dress for the fall, not the ride...
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Re: Regulator, how does it break?

rrgunslinger
Just make sure all  your gounds are good (clean) and connections are good and the batt is not bad and has water in it.  :)

On Wed, May 30, 2012 at 3:26 PM, Dw07u [via Honda CB750'S] <[hidden email]> wrote:
Hi everyone!

Thanks for the advice...

I have only now, since the bike has been to three different mechanics and still giving trouble, decided to inspect it myself... Seems the regulator the guy fitted last could not handle the bikes output and died on me just after a nice day of riding more violently than usual... and when it worked it did not charge the battery nearly as much as it should have...

Ordering a new one, and yes, I checked the AC generator, works well, and I might get new brushes just for the heck of it, one seems a bit worn...

Just again would like to say to everyone, thank you for all the advice, and support...

I know i'm not the most active user on this forum but I hope to one day be wise like so many of you are,
Dress for the fall, not the ride...



If you reply to this email, your message will be added to the discussion below:
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American by birth. Cowboy by choice! Vero Beach, FL http://i373.photobucket.com/albums/oo172/grandpaslinger/HD%20Road%20Glide/IMAG0046.jpg
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Re: Regulator, how does it break?

LukeM
Administrator
In reply to this post by Dw07u
One more thing to check, when you put in the new reg/rec:

Check the 3 yellow wires coming from your alternator, going to your reg/rec. This should be a Molex type connector  They should be nice and clean, with no signs of burning/melting/arcing. If they are burnt, this could contribute to your failure.

How to fix it? The easiest way is to snip out the yellow wires from the reg/rec harness, snip out the connector on the 3 yellow wire harness from your alternator, and solder the wires together.  Do remember to put some heat shrink tubing on before you solder: it works better than electrical tape. The disadvantage is you lose the ability to quickly change/replace the reg/rec. If this is important, then you can get a 3 conductor male/female connector set, the appropriate metal ends, and make it easily replaceable.

Here's a pic of what mine looked like  before I fixed it:



I hope this helps.  May be nothing, may be something you need to tend to.
Luke M
Used to have a 1979 CB750L, sold it as a parts bike, now riding a slightly modified 1984 VT700C. Network/Field Engineer. Central OH, USA, Earth, Sol System, Milky Way Galaxy, Universe.
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Re: Regulator, how does it break?

Dw07u
Wow! yours was burnt to ... ya...

Yeah my connectors are all still good, no melting or anything, a tad bit of dirt, and very small amounts of corrosion, but checked and they still make good contact.

Thing is, I was riding for about a week since it got back from the last mechanic, who just swopped out two wires on the regulator. and one day, i went to the doc, mall, and work on the bike, riding pretty fast on the freeway, and that evening after work, dead... Last time the regulator failed( which was also old and I suspect not up to OEM spec), it was the same scenario, so these crappy regulators they gave me just cant handle the punch... even though the connectors can, and all the fuses for that matter...

I Am also considering cleaning all the connections just to make sure, but one thing is for sure, I am getting a new regulator and two new brushes from amazon ...

What bothers me is, and you might be able to shed some light on this, is those three yellow wires coming from the alternator... obviously you need them all three for optimal functioning of the system, but the previous regulator only supported two... which leads me to believe that it 1. was not making effective use of the charging system, 2. was not as tough as the OEM parts, 3. was the wrong type anyway...

anyway, shipping will take some time, ordered last night and now I'm stuck driving a cage till I get my parts... might use this opportunity to polish my engine covers and tank, what you guys think?
Dress for the fall, not the ride...
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Re: Regulator, how does it break?

sgtslag
You are correct:  the alternator has three outputs, all A/C.  If your Rect./Reg. was only connected to two of the three yellow wires, it was not the correct unit.  By using only 2 wires, it was only using 2/3 of the alternator's output, which means 2/3 of the full power of the alternator, to run the bike, and charge the battery -- not enough power, period.

Draining your battery to the point where it cannot start your bike, means the battery's life has been shortened (known as "Deep Cycling").  I would recommend the Battery Tender Jr., smart trickle charger -- even with a new, AGM battery.    Connect your bike after every ride, and your battery will always be fully charged; it will also prevent sulfation on flooded batteries, if used regularly.  It is available from many vendors, including Amazon.com.  Cheers!
1979 CB750K (sold, 2012, but not forgotten)
1983 Kawasaki 440 LTD Belt Drive (sold, 2011)
1993 Kawasaki Voyager XII
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Re: Regulator, how does it break?

Dw07u
Thanks sgtslag!

I'm so happy when someone agrees...

Another thing, i found reading the service manual, that these regulators and rectifiers have to have low resistance one way, and high resistance the other way, this is how it kinda forces AC to DC, so after testing the crappy one I had, I found that it had way toooooooo high resistance going both ways... so that just confirms that it's broken...

and yes I would probably have to get another battery, third one this year its going to be.... all because that stupid mechanic at _______ motorcycles... did not get the right regulator/rectifier....
Dress for the fall, not the ride...
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Re: Regulator, how does it break?

sgtslag
I like, and agree with, your signature:  "Dress for the fall, not the ride".  I've had a total of four low-sides, in my life, thus far (all very minor injuries, if any; fastest was 40 MPH on a county highway -- suffered a bruise on the back of one hand).  My father suffered a horrific high-side, prior to my Senior year of High School (he survived; took him 14 months, I think, to return to work).  I know, first-hand, how important proper gear is -- not a guarantee, but it sure puts the odds closer to my favor.  Cheers!
1979 CB750K (sold, 2012, but not forgotten)
1983 Kawasaki 440 LTD Belt Drive (sold, 2011)
1993 Kawasaki Voyager XII
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