I'm In Pain!

[free2ride]

Finally got the beast started and moving and got her home. Of course, no start afterward. Charged her this morning, then took her out for a long ride in the country then  drove her into the garage and parked her for the season.

C'MON: it's only September! There are a bunch of good riding days ahead! And yet . . . what good is it if I can only ride one way and not shut her down? So parked she is and parked she stays.

Seat is off, battery is out . . . now to find the starter, remove it, and start taking it apart. The good: new brushes are only $25. The bad: I have no idea what I'm doing, haven't done any of my own work [other than oil changes] since doing a carb job on my '70 Torino. The ugly: what might happen when I start on this project!

Got the winter ahead to work . . . and a possible replacement starter [hint hint, TOOLS] if needed.

And no, I DON'T feel better now that I have this off my chest!

[Ray]

Rest in peace,  the starter is a piece of cake. just remove the starter and  remove the long bolts on the back end. after you replace the brushes, use some emery cloth to clean up the armature ( copper colored  round thing) lol  wipe with clean rag and  put it back together.             Ray

[TOOLS1]

What Ray said. I do not know what the weather is like up there right now, but I'm sure there is not snow on the ground yet. Sorry I have been very busy, and keep forgetting about the starter. I will get it checked though.
TOOLS

[shinyribs]

No kick start on your bike?

[TOOLS1]

Not on a DOHC.
TOOLS

[shinyribs]

See,learning every day

[free2ride]

shinyribs wrote

No kick start on your bike?

as TOOLS said, no kick start . . . and no push start either.

[free2ride]

TOOLS1 wrote

I do not know what the weather is like up there right now, but I'm sure there is not snow on the ground yet.

&&F and sun yesterday, 75F and sun today and tomorrow  

TOOLS1 wrote

Sorry I have been very busy, and keep forgetting about the starter. I will get it checked though.

not worried at all, my friend

[seestheday]

Wait, what?  Push starting won't work on a DOHC?

[TOOLS1]

seestheday wrote

Wait, what?  Push starting won't work on a DOHC?

Why not?
TOOLS

[sgtslag]

On bikes with an electro-magnetic rotor (the DOHC's), there is no magnetism in the coils, if the battery is dead.  A dead battery means no magnetic field in the rotor's electro-magnets, and no electricity generated by turning the rotor.  Current flows from the battery, through the electro-magnets in the rotor, generating magnetic lines of flux; the flux cuts through the coils of wires of the alternator, as the rotor spins, generating electricity.  The crankshaft turns the rotor once the bike is started, with the battery supplying current, and magnetic flux, to the rotor, whose flux lines cutting the coils, generates more electricity than the battery supplies, which re-charges the battery (the electrical energy comes indirectly from the burning gasoline -- this is NOT a perpetual motion machine).


Bikes requiring larger amounts of current (touring bikes, in particular), use electro-magnetic rotors, which can generate much stronger magnetic fields, which means more current output than any permanent magnets can deliver.  Smaller bikes use permanent magnets, larger displacement bikes use electro-magnets.  Really small bikes use magneto systems, sans battery, but they do have permanent magnets; bikes with magneto systems only need electricity to run the coils, and the headlight [usually, these are only used in off-road bikes, so no real electrical load of any kind, except the headlight(?), and the ignition coils].  If the battery has some juice/power left, you may be able to push start, but if it is completely dead, no chance.  Cheers!

[TOOLS1]

Just another reason why the SOHC bikes are better. Thanks Sarg.
TOOLS

[rich]

I think the addition of a Flux Capacitor would solve the problem. An additional side benefit of enabling time travel wouldn't hurt the resale value either.

[seestheday]

Cool, thanks for the explanation.

However, don't all ferrous metals have some magnetic change?  I guess if the battery is totally dead then you just can't move the rotor fast enough actually generate enough energy for a spark.  It should be technically possible to bump start a bike with a totally dead battery, it just might not be practical (e.g. getting towed up to speed behind a car).

[LukeM]

I believe there is a minimum voltage threshold where the electronics simply won't work, or work reliably. I think I saw a schematic somewhere of the ignitor systems, and based on some rough calculations, I think the no-go point is about 9V from the battery. Some riders have put in a switch to turn off the headlight while the engine is cranking, to avoid dropping the battery voltage too far.

Best idea is to keep the battery charged, either with a good alternator/regulator system, or a Battery Tender or similar device.  I've been lucky: Starting the Avenger II on the weekends has been problem-free.

Luke M

[sgtslag]

Yes, they will be slightly magnetized, but you're also correct in that it won't be enough to generate the needed electricity (AC in the alternator, converted to DC through the Rectifier/Regulator circuit, which requires quite a bit of juice to get through there, to the rest of the electrical system...).

Don't know the specs on how much voltage is enough. but, like I said, there are many voltage drops within the rect./reg. circuits, as well as the reactance (AC type of resistance) within the coils of the alternator, and the ignition coils.  "There is no such thing as a free ride..."  Cheers!

[free2ride]

sgtslag wrote

On bikes with an electro-magnetic rotor (the DOHC's), there is no magnetism in the coils, if the battery is dead.  A dead battery means no magnetic field in the rotor's electro-magnets, and no electricity generated by turning the rotor.  Current flows from the battery, through the electro-magnets in the rotor, generating magnetic lines of flux; the flux cuts through the coils of wires of the alternator, as the rotor spins, generating electricity.  The crankshaft turns the rotor once the bike is started, with the battery supplying current, and magnetic flux, to the rotor, whose flux lines cutting the coils, generates more electricity than the battery supplies, which re-charges the battery (the electrical energy comes indirectly from the burning gasoline -- this is NOT a perpetual motion machine).


Bikes requiring larger amounts of current (touring bikes, in particular), use electro-magnetic rotors, which can generate much stronger magnetic fields, which means more current output than any permanent magnets can deliver.  Smaller bikes use permanent magnets, larger displacement bikes use electro-magnets.  Really small bikes use magneto systems, sans battery, but they do have permanent magnets; bikes with magneto systems only need electricity to run the coils, and the headlight [usually, these are only used in off-road bikes, so no real electrical load of any kind, except the headlight(?), and the ignition coils].  If the battery has some juice/power left, you may be able to push start, but if it is completely dead, no chance.  Cheers!

the easier answer is "because my mechanic said so"

[MarkPBG]

So if i end up getting a DOHC, i may just consider keeping something like this in my onboard kit….

Start Monkey

Gotta love the small size and weight vs. power of the Lithium Polymer batteries. :)

[TOOLS1]

If, you feel the need to carry something like that, you are either planning on traveling unreasonable distances on unreliable equipment, or need medication.
TOOLS

[LukeM]

Startmonkey?  Any relation to Code Monkey?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5W_wd9Qf0IE

It's work safe.

Luke M