New to forum/CB650 and my first question!

[shinyribs]

DC!  You need a DC tester I do it all the time.At my work our equipment is 120v ac high voltage with a 24v dc control circuit.I am constantly checking the settings on my meter...and fixing themGlad you got it sorted out

[shinyribs]

seestheday wrote

Thanks, what did you paint it with?

Here is what i used to paint it.Followed by high temp clear,i believe it was Duplicolor as well.Without the clear,the silver is way too metallic.Looked horrible.With the clear it was exactly what i wanted.The clear really toned it down,but it still sparkles nicely in the sun.Got it all from Advance Auto

[JPSmee]

Well, looks like I'm not out of the woods just yet. Went to start the bike and the battery was pretty drained. I'm very much new to working on vehicles (this is my first one that I've done anything to/with on my own), but I'm guessing I've got a short somewhere in my electrical system. Is this a good first thing to check for? If so, is there a good place to start checking?

As always, and/all assistance is greatly appreciated!

[JPSmee]

I went ahead and picked up a cut-off switch so I can at least keep a charge in the battery in-between rides until I can sort out what's causing the battery to drain.

Taking her out for a spin tonight. Can't wait

[shinyribs]

If you have something electrical staying on and draining your battery you should be able to see it when you hook your battery cables up.If there is arcing when you are first touching the cables to the battery,that is a sign of something pulling current.I cant think of anything on a bike that would draw at all times.If anyone else has any insight on this i would love to know myself.The only possibility i can think of is if your ignition switch/kill switch is allowing current to flow at all times.In that case,constant power to the points with the engine not running could burn the points up. Any possibility that you just accidentally left the ignition on? That would make for an easy fix

[JPSmee]

No arcing was noted. If it's a slow drain, would it still arc?

I'm certain that I had the switch off (I distinctly remember turning it to on before trying to start . . . otherwise it's quite possible with me ).

[shinyribs]

Im just wondering what else could cause a drain.I dont see how any of the lights or horns could cause a drain when the bike is off.There is not really anything else there!Part of the charging system,perhaps?I know there is a diode on these bikes.Maybe that could be related.Hmmm,interesting.....

[Cabreco]

You might have a parasitic drain. You need to rig up an ammeter in series between a battery cable and the battery:

Best way to check for parasitic drain with the engine off is to disconnect one of the battery terminals and connect a multimeter in series between the battery post and cable terminal. Make sure the bike is in full "standby" mode: key out, kill switch off. You should 0mA drain, If it's much above that, in the hundreds of mA or more, there is an excessive drain someplace. Find it by disconnecting suspected circuits/devices one at a time until the drain drops back down to normal. While the meter is connected, do not turn the key on or attempt to start the bike, this may destroy the meter (or at least pop its internal fuse). In fact don't put the key in at all until you complete the test and reconnect the battery terminal.

Repeat the process with the kill switch on key off.

There is a much easier and cheaper for most by using an ordinary 12v test light instead of an ammeter {NO LED TERSTERS FOR THIS ONE}. Disconnect one battery terminal, attach one end of the test light to the removed terminal and the other end to the battery where the term was connected. you should have zero ma draw with the key off. No more than 100ma which translates to a slight glow of the test light. A draw that will kill your battery will light the test light brightly. If the test light lights up simply remove your fuses one at a time until the light goes out.  If the light will not go out you have a draw on a circuit that is not fused, alt wiring regulator...

Good luck.

[JPSmee]

Thanks for the write-up on this - this is what I had suspected would be the best way to check.

You did mention something thought that I had no considered . . . the engine cut-off switch. That shouldn't draw any amps when the key is set to off, should it? I honestly cannot recall what position it was in when I left it after my first ride.

[shinyribs]

The kill switch runs in series with the ignition switch and the clutch/nuetral safety switch.If the ign switch is off everything SHOULD be off as well as i know

[JPSmee]

That's what I thought too.

I should have some time this weekend to poke around the system to see where the problem is. At least the charging system works while the engine is running

[shinyribs]

Thats a big plus by itself!Good luck with it.Let us know what you find,please

[Cabreco]

JPSmee wrote

Thanks for the write-up on this - this is what I had suspected would be the best way to check.

You did mention something thought that I had no considered . . . the engine cut-off switch. That shouldn't draw any amps when the key is set to off, should it? I honestly cannot recall what position it was in when I left it after my first ride.

The kill switch shouldn't make a difference whether on or off, but I learned many years ago to check things that seem improbable (especially since it's all set up anyway)

I can't tell you how many times I've bashed my head against a wall only to find out it was something stupid.

Good luck & keep us updated!

[JPSmee]

Okay, I've got a bit of an update.

Took the bike (still needs a name ) out last night for a ride after ensuring that the battery was 100% charged. Rode for about 20 minutes and managed to stall it (d'oh). When I attempted to start it again, it acted like the battery was dead again. Managed to push start it, and ride for another 30 minutes. When I came to a full stop and tried to idle, the engine cut out (I need to adjust the idle . . . it's way too low). Same routine as before, push start and got back on the road. When I got home and hooked the battery up to the tester/charger, it noted that the battery was at 30% charge.

I opened up the charging system again and re-checked the rotor and stator. Resistance steady at 5 on rotor, and 1-1.1 for stator (this seems a little on the high range, but close to what was reported in Cheeseheads's thread, and his stator seemed okay).

I went ahead and set up the battery to trickle-charge overnight and confirmed it was at 100% before I left for work this AM. I disconnected the charger and the battery from the bike. I plan on checking the charge on the battery tonight to see if the battery is just loosing charge all on it's own (doesn't seem likely that I got a bad new battery, but anything is possible). If I can safely rule that out, I'll try to get it up and running and get an accurate volt-reading on the system at off, idle and 4000 rpm (when I tested it before, I only noted that the voltage went up, but I honestly wasn't paying attention to how much it went up).

One item of note though - when the bike is running, it runs like a dream. When the battery was dead and we push-started it, I revved up the engine and the lights did get brighter - this leads me to believe that even if the charging system is not functioning at capacity, it's at least adding juice to the system.

Anything else anyone can think of that I should try?

[sgtslag]

That battery is rated at 14 Amp-hours:  that is, it will supply 14 amps for one hour, or 1 amp, for 14 hours.  You rode it for 20-40 minutes, and it went down to 30% of full charge... That means it was discharging at a pretty high rate.  I suspect the charging system is failing.

The voltage across the battery, while running at, or above, 4,000 RPM (under load, as in driving it down the road, or engine damage can occur) is critical.  This will indicate whether the charging system is supplying enough power to recharge the battery, or not.  If you have a wire connecting kit,  with a crimping tool, put a small gauge wire (16-20 GA), on a loop connector, on each battery terminal, with a small, inline fuse (1 amp, or less -- no current should flow, so size should be as small as possible, even a 100 mA fuse would work), and connect these leads to your DVM (Digital Volt Meter) set to DC 20 Volt range, and ride it down the road, at 4,000+ RPM.  The voltage, if everything is working properly, will be 13-14 Volts.  Anything less, and your charging system is not working properly.

The speed at which your battery is draining, suggests a heavy load -- the engine's ignition system -- without the benefit of the charging system to replenish the battery.  Get some sort of Voltmeter across your battery, and ride it at 4k RPM, and see what your charging system is doing.  If I were a betting man, I would wager cash on your charging system being the culprit.


By the way, you are deep cycling your 'new' battery.  Every deep discharge is shortening its life, dramatically, AGM, Gell, or lead-acid.  You need to get the problem fixed, or you will be adding a new battery to your parts shopping list, very soon.    Cheers!

[JPSmee]

Good point re:deep cycling. As for the charging system, I'm hoping to confirm it's status once I get home. I'm honestly hoping it's just the battery though, as that would be substantially easier to fix (both in time and money). If the multimeter tests on the stator and rotor check out for the charging system, what else is there to test? The wiring from the charging system to the battery?

[sgtslag]

The Alternator generates AC current (yellow wires), which it sends to a Rectifier, which converts (rectifies) it to DC current; the Rectifier sends the DC current to a Voltage Regulator, which controls how high the DC voltage applied to the bike, and the battery, gets -- it keeps it at less than 15 Volts (higher voltage will destroy the battery, and the electricals on the bike -- bulbs, any solid state parts in the CDI, and possibly burn up the coil wires).

The Rectifier circuit is housed in the same body as the Regulator circuit, and they share the same heatsink (usually located under the left side cover, or beneath the seat).  It is an expensive part, and it is essentially a "black box", for troubleshooting:  measure the AC Voltage at its input (yellow wires), to see that it is getting its supply of AC current from the Alternator; check its output DC Voltage (across the battery's terminals) to see if it is outputting a regulated voltage of 13-14.8 Volts DC, to the battery (voltage will vary depending upon the RPM, which governs how much AC is put out by the Alternator -- the higher the RPM's, the more AC, the more DC, up to the Regulator's maximum).

By measuring the voltage across the battery, while riding at 3,000+ RPM, you will be testing the entire charging system, from the alternator (those rings you tested the resistance on, are a part of the alternator, and are only a partial indicator of its health -- the resistance of the alternator's coils is not a foolproof test).  The voltage across the battery tells you if the charging system is working, or not.  If it is, then your battery is shot:  new or not, it has to be the culprit if there is 13-14.8 Volts DC across its terminals while riding.  This will indicate that the battery is being charged, but it is not accepting the charge because its internal parts are damaged.

There is a guy who sells his own Rectifier/Regulators for CB750's, designed to be heavier duty than OEM.  If mine goes, I will buy from him, as he over-built his units so they will probably outlast the engine...

http://www.oregonmotorcycleparts.com/Reg_rec_units.html

[LukeM]

One more thing to check is the connection of the yellow wires from the alternator to the rectifier/regulator.  3 yellow wires.  If it goes through a connector, check the connections for corrosion or rust.  If the corrosion is not too bad, clean them well with contact cleaner and put on some dielectric coating before connecting them back up.  If they are very badly corroded, then one option is to clip the wires going to both ends of the connectors, and solder them together.  I did this on my Shadow, and the charging system worked MUCH better after that.  You can look around on other threads for Honda and similar motorcycles: just search for "3 yellow wires".

Luke M

[JPSmee]

Here are the results of my testing:

100% charge after sitting 8 hours

12.9V off
12.4V on
12.4V @ 1000rpm
13.3V @ 3000rpm
14.7v @ 4000rpm

I'm cleaning my connections now to be extra sure of the above results.

If I get the same results, should I look at a new rotor *and* stator? I ask as the resistance tests didn't seem to identify the culprit.

[JPSmee]

Sgtslag - many thanks for the info!

I Noted a charge between 13 - 14v during my testing, but only at rpm over 3000.

If the battery isn't taking charge from the charging system, wouldn't it also not take a charge from my wall charger?