Welding, what do you know?

[samir_nayanajaad]

I have noticed that many people fall into one of two categories, one they want to build their own stuff but lack tools/know how to do so, two they want to build their own stuff and have the tools and know how.  And on these bikes welding seems to be one very important skill to have.

I'm wondering if we could just get a thread going on the basics of some topic that is very handy to know. In this case welding. One it's very expensive to have someone do it for you and two because of the cost you only get one shot at it.  If your not happy with the results your looking at a lot of money to try something else. Whereas if you can weld pretty much you bust out a hack saw and try again, your only out materials.

So if you guys out there that have some welding know how, and trying to keep this as 101 as possible, first of all what is the best/appropriate type of welding for a beginner to start looking into? Someone who is looking at welding some frame mods, maybe an exhaust, maybe an electronics box or other common things. Then maybe if you can suggest what is the most important things to look for in a welder or other tools when selecting what to buy.

[shinyribs]

I learned to weld when i was 13 years old.I put a set of motor mount in a truck that are still there.Anyone can do it!We had an old Craftsman buzz box(stick welder)that my Mom had bought my Pops for a Christmas present.Once you learn to weld with that machine,you can use any of them! I would be glad to help you with any particular questions that you may come up with.I hate to say this next part,but it is true:If you want to learn to weld,you really need to just go for it.It is so hard to explain what you hear-see-feel when welding and relay that to someone else.Practice really does make perfect.The main thing is to have a good machine and properly sized.A novice can weld good with a great welder,but may have issues with a not so great welder.An experienced welder can work through the problems that a lesser quality machine will create.
   Any mechanic is only as good as his or her tools.
   In my opinion,unless your are going to need to be welding outside alot,or need to burn through a rusty piece of metal,i would stay away from stick welders.They can and will produce excellent welds,as good as any other machine,but are the hardest to learn on.Also,the rods for them are real sensitive to moisture.You have to store them in special containers away from ANY humidity or they are junk.It just drives cost up for the already expensive rods.
  A MIG is the easiest to use by far.Pull the trigger and go.I would recommend using a MIG that uses shielding gas.The flux core machines are ok for alot of stuff,but the gas machines will work for anything.That gives you the expense of either buying or leasing the cylinder for the shielding gas,though.Im not sure what they sell/lease for now.I bought my last cylinder about 7-8 years ago for $200.I weld more than most DIYer's,probably got it on at least 5 days a week.I usually fill my cylinder 4 or 5 times a year at $37 per bottle.I have a big bottle.Its 4 feet tall.A mig does not like wind!!!It will blow the sheidling gas away and cause some nasty welds.They are best used indoors.Even a slight breeze will bite you in the butt.That is one place where a stick shines.
   A mig that uses flux core wire cannot use gas.A gas MIG can use flux core wire if you really need to go outdoors.It will give you some "dirt" in your welds using flux core,but it is very usable.
  Unless you really want to weld a lot of aluminum or stainless steel,there is no need to invest in a TIG welder.The only reason i have one is because of stupid race engines with aluminum heads.When a connecting rod or valve comes loose and tears up a head you can either buy a new head($1500+) or weld
it up.My tig has saved me from buying 2 pairs of heads,and i have fixed over 1/2 a dozen for other racers.It has paid for itself at best.
  You CAN weld aluminum with a stick or a MIG,too.Doing it with a stick takes some real finesse and ALOT of high dollar rods.Using a MIG on aluminum is not bad at all,but i dont like it for internal engine components,but that is just MY OPINION.


   But for most people a Mig will do it all.A 240v welder is much "cleaner" welding than a 120v.Im not going to argue with anyone on that,its just basic science.You can usually get a good 240v Mig,that uses gas,and will weld up to 3/8" steel easily for about $6-700.That is what i would recommend for anyone that wants to do their own welding.It will handle anything from the gas tank on your bike to the frame rails on your truck
    Dont count out "cheap"welders.If you are not using it every day at full capacity,you dont need an industrial duty machine.And watch your local stores for clearances.I got my Hobart 240 at Northern Hydraulics for $250 because it was the display model and was missing the regulators.I picked up a set of regulators at a welding shop(used set they weren't using because that particular welder died
) for $25.I also bought the "Northern" brand plasma cutter from them.It is over 2 years old now and hasn't given any issues.It is a good machine.
   One thing to remember when buying "off-brand" machines.MAKE SURE YOU CAN BUY CONSUMABLES FOR THEM!!!I have known people to buy dirt cheap welders and years later cannot find new tips for it,rendering it useless.Some thing to check on before you break out you cash.
  Might not be cheap,but gives you alot of freedom in your shop.Hey,which would you rather have?A flat screen TV,a weekend at the beach...or your own welder?

[samir_nayanajaad]

That's a lot of useful information shiny, thanks.  I know its hard to type out how to weld, my dad has explained to me a bunch of times but I still don't get it.  He has stick welders, and yeah pain in the ass to learn. Then of course you have braising with a torch that he does, damn talk about impossible to do puddle on puddle to make it look pretty.

A few more questions that I know can be problem areas but I don't know enough to explain.

Dissimilar metals being joined whats possible with a MIG?  From your description sounds like MIG is the shit for welding.

Any issues with specialty metals such as chromoly or high carbon steel (Aren't a lot of bike frames more than just plain steel? That's why I ask)

The wire you use, does it change for what type of metal you'r welding? Such as is there aluminum wire for welding aluminum and steel for steel?

[shinyribs]

I dont know of any way to join dissimilar metals with  any welder.You can weld stainless steel to any other type of steel,since it is all steel,but thats about it.
   You hear rumors that chromoly can only be welded with a TIG.That started from where the NHRA  requires that CM be TIGged in order for the roll cage to pass tech.It will weld just fine with a MIG or stick,also.
   As far as alloys in filler metal(rods,wire...)aluminum can be particular,but steel is simple.To be honest,i never even check for alloy# when i buy wire for the MIG.
  Whatever you are welding,use that same material for filller.
  Aluminum=aluminum
  Mold steel,chromoly,stainles=steel
  Or you can use  stainless filler on stainless ,especially if you want to polish it

[samir_nayanajaad]

I found a nice youtube channel that shows MIG welding, doesn't look hard at all. It seems setting up the welder properly for what your welding and how fast you move is the hardest part. Now if i can just get my hands on a MIG welder that I could give it a shot on.

http://www.youtube.com/user/weldingtipsandtricks#p/a/u/0/uWv26K8r-U4

[Daddyman]

Get a book on Metallurgy and read up on that.  The easiest welder to learn on would be a mig welder, look for a mig with a high duty cycle above 50%.  The 110volt migs are great for small stuff but 220 volt is best.  If your looking to weld heavy stuff like a car hauler I use a 220volt DC stick welder.  Stay away from the AC welders untill you learn to weld with a DC unit.  AC welders are cheap but are a pain when welding over head.  Mig welders are easy to use in any position so thats where I would start.

[shinyribs]

Good point Daddyman.I never thought about the ac/dc part.I always run with my wire speed kinda slow and the heat up.Some people cant weld with my welder when i set it up the way l like it.Low wire speed and high heat,if you move fast enough,will burn in great,but not leave a lot of filler piled up.Leaves a nice,almost flush bead.
  As far as choosing wire speed goes.If it feels like the handle is pushing back at you,or you can see/feel tension,than it is feeding more than it can use.If it is popping that is a sign of the wire not being fed quickly enough and you are losing contact with the work piece.It all common sense really,but it takes a few days to get a feel for it
    P.S.Always protect yours ears if lying down.I never thought about this before and was welding up some mufflers for a buddy.Hot spark went way down in my ear and just sat there an sizzled.Seemed like forever,i get ear infections about every year since that happened.Hurt like you would not believe.I got a huge box of disposable earplugs hanging on the wall of the shop now

[Daddyman]

  weird listening to the wax cook!  been there!

[samir_nayanajaad]

Could you elaborate on the AC/DC difference?  What benefits/drawbacks of each and such?

[shinyribs]

Im sure that you know what ac and dc are.In relation to welding think of it like this.Ac current alternates and dc is direct.If you see ac on a sine wave graph,or whatever its called,it looks like a roller coaster.Up and down,up and down.Dc does not.Straight line.  A dc welder will deliver a smoother weld and more consistent.The consistency is what makes it so much easier to weld upside-down or in a straight up and down position.The ac welder wants to "cut off" between each cycle off the up and down sine wave(It doesnt really cut off,just trying to explain) and will let the molten puddle of metal that you are currently working sort of "release" so to speak.causing it to drop or run downhill.With dc it just plasters it right on there baby!  
      There are instances where you need ac.If you are TIG welding aluminum,it will only work on ac.
     Again,great point to mention Daddy-o.

[Peterwh]

I have a strong preference for TIG but I'm biased.  I learned to weld with TIG when I was 16 and I was a coded welder on stainless.  I've also done a lot of copper and aluminium.  Welding with TIG is the easiest thing in the world and you can get the nicest looking finish.  You can also do some dissimilar metals with some success.

The reason you need AC to weld stainless is the AC scours off the oxide which forms very quickly at welding temperatures.

And yes, the current does go to zero twice very cycle when welding with AC, it just happens so quickly that you do not lose the arc.

[Daddyman]

Well said my friend! Your the man

[TOOLS1]

JB Weld. Just mix two equal parts, and smear on.
If, you get to south east Kansas City. Stop by, and I will give, you a quick lesson on my mig. It is really cool. You just set the knobs, for the thickness of the metal, and the machine set's it's self automatically. I would definitely recommend the mig, for what, you are planning on doing.
TOOLS

[samir_nayanajaad]

Thanks for all the helpful replies, now that I have read all this it  seems almost as easy as using a hot glue gun. Tools I may have to make a trip up to KC sometime down the road and take you up on your offer.  It wont be for a while though.

That pretty much clears up my questions I had about welding but, anyone else that may just be lurking ask away. I know myself I am at least familiar with what TIG and MIG are and other terms but if you don't feel free to ask. Or if anyone has a good link to info, tools, or how to's toss it on here. I didn't want this just focused on what I was needing to do but anyone who was looking to jump into welding.

I do now have a few quesions strictly pertaining to headers as is the biggest thing I am needing to learn how to weld.  As for welding them what is the best approach to take on anything that is pipe/tube shaped?  I know its best to tac weld it going around sort of like torquing down a wheel, start at 12 o'coock then 6, 9, 3 giving it time to cool in-between so as not to warp the metal. But Im sure there is a proper technique to it if someone could fill me in. Next do I need to grind the edge of the pipe so that when it butts together I have a V groove to fill in with the weld or will just a flat butt joint be fine?

[TOOLS1]

A lot of people take welding too seriously. If, you are going to be a professional welder welding steam pipe, and structural steel; then yes, you do need to take it seriously. And need the best equipment. However if, you are just going to be weekend warrior welding brackets on, or repairing something around the farm/shop. Then, you do not need serious heavy duty equipment. A 110 volt mig with a gas bottle will do 99.99% of anything, you will ever encounter. A flux core mig can repair anything around the farm, or your 4X4 out in the boonies. The main thing is to know your limitations. A skilled welder could weld a frame together with the $89.00 Harbor freight welder, and it would be stronger, and look better then the novice welder with the best equipment in the world.
As, for the tubing question. You only need to bevel if it is over an 1/8 inch. If the welder is set right just weld around it. However do tack it in several places like, you were talking about first.
TOOLS

[shinyribs]

You can weld headers good with a mig.I spot mine in 3 place to hold the location,then just spot around with little zaps here and there.If you use a tig on them you can almost melt them together with little or or no filler rod.Makes for a really smooth seam.The factory pipes on these bikes are SUPER thin and light weight and would be very difficult for a new welder to mig up.Not impossible,though.Unless you are using tubing with a very thick wall thickness you will not need a v-groove as most exhaust tubing is very soft and will penetrate easily.My most successful headers joints have actually been done with an oxy-acetylene torch.Same technique as a tig,but without the electricity.

[sgtslag]

I've been checking out books, and DVD's, on welding, from my local library.  I've learned a lot, but I don't have a welder, yet.  Hope to get one soon.

For arc welding, be aware that you will need either a 220 VAC/20+ Amp circuit, or a 110 VAC/30 Amp circuit wired into your garage, or shop, or wherever you plan to weld!  This is not something you can skimp on...  Make sure it is wired according to code, because otherwise you might burn your house down.


I've been looking at the different types of welders, and I agree, wire feed welders (with/without gas), are the easiest to learn on.  Stick welders are among the least expensive, and are extremely versatile.

For higher duty cycles, you will want to make sure your welder is an Inverter type:  this is a more efficient type of power conversion, from line AC current, to low voltage, high amperage, DC current, which forms the arc.  While it is possible to find plans on the Internet, to make an AC, Buzz-Box welder, using discarded, high voltage transformers harvested from microwave ovens, they are not the best.  Note, however, that these home-built units, are strictly AC arc welders, and they are very low efficiency, and low duty cycles.

On top of the welder, and the appropriate sticks/wire, you will need protection from the harsh UV (ultra-violet -- harmful out to 40 feet, according to one book), and IR (infra-red, will burn exposed skin, very quickly), as well as the gases, air-born particles (metal particulates -- very bad!), and the light (all of the light produced can burn your eyes...)!  Welding can be quite dangerous, so invest the time to research the potential hazards.  And be safe!


There are books aimed at beginners, which even suggest projects for beginners:  a welding table (metal, allows welder to put their grounding clamp on the table, rather than the work piece); welding blinds, or shields, to block the light, UV, and IR, from affecting anyone nearby; as well as other things such as shelving units. Your library is your friend -- it will save you a fortune on books that might be useful, or might be a complete waste of your cash supply.


The thing to remember about arc welding, is that your supply voltage is not nearly as important as your output current, for welding, and the arc.  The thicker the metal, the more amperage you need, not voltage, for the arc.  If you can get 100+ amps from a 110 VAC welder, it will handle near 1/4" steel, if I remember my tables and charts correctly.  The 100 amps in the arc, is only 60-90 VDC.  The efficiency of the welder refers to its ability to convert high, line AC voltage, to high amperage, low DC voltage, for the arc.  There is no doubt that 220 VAC circuits can supply more amperage, and power, overall, but it depends on what level of welding amperage you need, and how efficient your welder is at converting it.

The Inverter type of DC welders, run at 80%+ efficiency at converting the line AC to welding DC current.  The Inverter types are using very high amperage, solid-state electronics to convert 80%+ of the AC power to lower voltage DC amps to create the welding arc.  Non-inverter, DC welders are in the 50% range of efficiency, which means they can only put out around 60 amps, on a 110 VAC welder.

There are a lot of DC welders available on e-Bay, both 110 VAC, and 220 VAC units.  If you are very confident you will be using it frequently, then invest more money into your unit.  If, like me, you will be pursuing it more as a hobby, with uncertainty as to how much welding you will be doing, then perhaps an inexpensive, 110 VAC stick welder unit will be a better choice?  Much to consider.  Here is the model I am looking at:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/370274725414?ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1423.l2649#ht_594wt_952

Note that this unit does not have the leads needed to weld -- you will need to purchase them separately.  Also note that this unit will function on a 110 VAC/20 Amp circuit, but it won't push 110 Amps into the arc, without a 110 VAC/30 Amp supply circuit...  My garage has an anemic, 15 Amp/110 VAC circuit.  It needs to be upgraded, even without throwing an arc welder into the mix!  I really need to get an estimate from an electrician, before I do anything else.


Again, before buying any welder, find out what the power circuit upgrade will cost you...  Then factor in the cost of your desired welder, and that will give you a ballpark figure of cash needed.  Then add in leathers, gloves, respirator, welding mask, and miscellaneous supplies (don't forget about venting the fumes, and blocking the light (UV, IR, etc.).  Cheers!

[Lucky 1]

It is difficult to answer this question.

Buying a welding machine is not the first step to creating or repairing metal.
Welding class is the first step, with hands on instruction.

You can look at YouTube videos, but many of the videos skip many important safety and technical issues.
It is unregulated and often incorrect information, or incomplete information.
Some of the videos are very good but each one is only one small part of the picture and leaving out any part of the welding training can lead to a disaster.

The first step to learning about welding is to take a class in beginning welding at your local junior college or trade school.

One of the first things you learn in a welding class is how to properly take care of and use welding gases and regulators. How to turn them on and how to turn them off and other important information about welding gases and regulators.


Many people just go down to HF or other big box store and buy a welding machine.
IF you insist on doing that at least go to a real welding store so that when you buy a machine you can get your questions answered. But now days many of the sales people at some of these welding stores have no welding training.
Some of the welding sales personal were welding their entire life and had professional training.
A little hit and miss, but it is much better than any big box store.

Never weld a motorcycle frame if you have not had training! Someone may buy that motorcycle and get
hurt or killed on it.
It is not just the welding that needs to be done properly, but the design of that weldment.
How it was prepared and beveled or reinforced.

If you build a tank and do not construct the joints properly and you try to repair it could cause an explosion.
Never weld on a tank that has had a petroleum product in it ,
no matter how clean you think you washed it out.

If you are going to learn to weld take a beginning welding class.

BTW...I am a certified welder and welding inspector.
I have spent most of my life TIG welding in
addition to learning all of the other welding processes.

If you have a specific welding question ask but it would be better to post your question on
www.weldingweb.com

[Lucky 1]

" Any mechanic is only as good as his or her tools."

I would say " Any mechanic is only as good as their training and experience"

But buy good quality tools.

[Lucky 1]

To "type out" an entire welding course even just for MIG welding on this forum would be unreasonable.

All of the questions you have about welding could be answered in the first week of a beginning welding course.

Go to www.weldingweb.com and ask your specific questions.